Official ghost talk topic.

[Dan]

I don't watch that show mainly because of that guy, I don't belive in mediums, and yet I do belive in people being possesed by demons etc. there are two shows that are really good, called A Haunting and Ghost Hunters. If you haven't seen them lemme tell ya about them. A Haunting is just telling stories of haunting with interviews of the people that lived throught them, they have re-enactments, and it's about an hour long. Ghost Hunters is... well just what the title says it's a group of guys and now a girl that go out and investigate so called hauntings. CM Punk went with them when they investigated the Stanley Hotel 2 years ago on halloween, and Elijah Burke went last year. It's actually a good show, I recomend people who belive in ghosts watch it.

nekropunx88, demon possession? So you believe that evil spirits have come up from hell (if not, where?) and entered the body of a human in order to survive(?) and/or control them? Presumably you're in support of the Vatican having exorcists then? I happen to think these people who appear to be possessed need proper medical attention because they have mental health problems. The last thing they need is people around them claiming they are possessed by a demon. They need real help.

what do you guys think about orbs, poltergeists and "shadow people"?

Orbs are dust/insects/dirt catching the light, why do people still cling to this one? As for poltergeists and shadow people, well they're either supernatural beings that have channelled through to our plain on planet Earth or they are the result of various optical illusions or hallucinations. Call me silly, but I'd go for latter, just seems to make more sense to me!

So, I was thinking about the whole ghost thing again... I'm not so sure about ghosts, but I do believe in impressions. By that I mean the "feelings" left by whoever was previously in the room/building (dead or not). Of course, this is all based on the idea that we can "feel" the emotions of others when they're very strong (or if we happen to be especially sensitive to those kinds of things). You know, whatever it is you feel when you walk into a room full of people who had just been arguing, or when you're a kid a walk into your parent's room and you just know that they had been yelling at one another, but shut up when they saw you coming.

Lucinda, you know what I'm going to say...there's nothing paranormal or supernatural about any of that. Science can explain all of this. We've even figured out what's behind an outer body experience recently.

You've said it yourself, the reason the kid knows the parents have been arguing, is because they've stopped talking. He may even pick up some of the sound vibrations in the room, I don't know, there's a ton of logical reasons why we appear to "feel" other people's emotions.

[Lucinda]

Lucinda, you know what I'm going to say...there's nothing paranormal or supernatural about any of that. Science can explain all of this. We've even figured out what's behind an outer body experience recently.

You've said it yourself, the reason the kid knows the parents have been arguing, is because they've stopped talking. He may even pick up some of the sound vibrations in the room, I don't know, there's a ton of logical reasons why we appear to "feel" other people's emotions.

Oh, definitely. I think that people mistake the "echoes" or whatever for ghosts and other paranormal being. Haha, no, I think God exists, but that's as far as I go with the supernatural.

For the record, those ghost hunter shows are hilarious, in my opinion. You're in a dark place, told a bunch of "scary" stories, and every little bump or creak in the floor is a "spirit."

And nekropunx reminded me of something...when I was younger, and first heard about the whole "possession" buisness, the first thing I thought was, "Wow. What if I'm a demon possessing this person's body and forgot I did it!" Seriously, that was my first thought. Would make for a cool anime or something.

[nekropunx88]

what do you guys think about orbs, poltergeists and "shadow people"?

Orbs are dust/insects/dirt catching the light, why do people still cling to this one? As for poltergeists and shadow people, well they're either supernatural beings that have channelled through to our plain on planet Earth or they are the result of various optical illusions or hallucinations. Call me silly, but I'd go for latter, just seems to make more sense to me!

Well yes orbs are dust/insects I learned that after watching tv shows where they debunk that kind of stuff. I honestly don't believe in them but I just wanted to see if people still believe in them. As for poltergeists I think that teenagers are to blame for them, more specifically their subconscious. I think that when someone has too much stress/anxiety or just has something that they can't get out of their minds *that's bothering them* they release a strong enough energy that can move objects, etc. But I'm starting to doubt "shadow people" it could be a persons mind playing tricks on them. But then again there have been instances when I have looked up and seen a shadow move across my bedroom door and it can't be a car because well we live on the second floor and there is a tree blocking the view of the street. *oh wait I just realised it was a bird... *

[Janus]

I don't believe in dust/orbs/ect. in the least bit, maybe because they're so fake... they're so easy to debunk. It's usually just a speck of dust floating around the room yet people say "ZOMG GHOST!" which is ridiculous. It usually happens in these "old" haunted mansions too.

As far as shadow figures, at night it can be a lot of things. It's not necessarily a ghost or anything, it could be one shape in your room and with the dark, that shapes looks like a figure. This is just one possibility, sometimes the dark will play tricks with your vision and make spots darker than the rest of the room. Happens to me all the time.

Exorcism is a very interesting topic. I've watched videos of these so called possessions but never found out what the deal was. The most logical choice would be to assume it's a form of mental disability, but why hasn't it been picked up? Maybe because the religious folk think it's exorcism and make the people go to them instead of a doctor. Iunno.

The one that gets me the most is poltergeists. What's the deal there?! Either the objects are being moved by people, which they probably are, or maybe the house isn't leveled. XD. No clue. If the objects are indeed being moved by people, then they sure go through a lot of trouble to make it believable.

While we're on the topic of all this supernatural talk, let me delve beyond just ghosts and ghouls and bring forth... the Ouija board. Thoughts? Fake? Hoax? Real? People report all types of "paranormal" events after messing with one, so do you think they're valid or just a bunch of gibberish? Has anyone tried one, by the way?

[LightingStrikes]

I believe in ghosts and the supernatural. There are somethings that just can't be explained. Some ghosts wants us to see them and others don't, and I don believe that a few causes a bit of mischief but they are harmless.

You all wanna see something really freaky and weird look at this video, the cop who was chasing this guy got the scare of his life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcFMyHnyc0U

[Dan]

I believe in ghosts and the supernatural. There are somethings that just can't be explained. Some ghosts wants us to see them and others don't, and I don believe that a few causes a bit of mischief but they are harmless.

You all wanna see something really freaky and weird look at this video, the cop who was chasing this guy got the scare of his life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcFMyHnyc0U

Of course some things can't be explained, but that doesn't mean they're supernatural. This has to be the worst argument for believing in something. Just because there's a lack of answers for 'x', doesn't mean 'y' is the answer. However, every video or account you've heard about ghosts and/or the supernatural probably has a far more logical explanation. All the well known cases probably have archives of rebuttals online as well.

As for the video, footage has been cut out in several places, look at the clock in the corner jump. They also claim the car drove away really fast but the footage has clearly been sped up, again look at the clock! Next the car is meant to have gone straight through the fence. Firstly you can barely see anything, you can just make out the car driving to the left, as if it went around the fence.

Why is this stuff convincing to anyone, there's a logical alternative for everything you see in the video. But that's not even required in this case, the video is so bad you just need a pair of eyes to see how it's been doctored.

[Tom]

Hey um I'm not watching the vid I don't want to I beleive in ghost lol. But is the video of a girl who gets ina car and makes them crash? by screaming an got a scary face when she screams? cuz if it is then no way dude I seen it, and when i watched it I thought they would see a ghost them they picked her up not her been the ghost, i pretty much shit myself when it happened, well not shit my self but jumped and farted pretty loud haha lol.

[Dan]

Hey um I'm not watching the vid I don't want to I beleive in ghost lol. But is the video of a girl who gets ina car and makes them crash? by screaming an got a scary face when she screams? cuz if it is then no way dude I seen it, and when i watched it I thought they would see a ghost them they picked her up not her been the ghost, i pretty much shit myself when it happened, well not shit my self but jumped and farted pretty loud haha lol.

Umm....no. It's a police car chase that's been doctored.

[Tom]

oh ok, i might watch it lol, is it were they chase a car and it goes through a fence and the fence isn't damaged?

soz for all the questions btw.

[Dan]

oh ok, i might watch it lol, is it were they chase a car and it goes through a fence and the fence isn't damaged?

soz for all the questions btw.

The car goes round the fence, but yes it's that video.

[Tom]

ohhh ok lol

[Lucinda]

Well, I had an...interesting experience while hanging out with one of my friends. Now, she claims to be quite sensitive to supernatural/paranormal things, and I have no doubt that she actually believes this to some extent, and I can definitely respect that. In any case, of course I was a bit skeptical (and I later thought, 'Hmmm, I may have been unfairly skeptical...'). However, the more we spoke, the more I realized that many of her...experience were very odd, and if she was telling the truth (I have no reason to disbelieve her), would warrant some serious investigation. (I can't really go into details for privacy's sake...). What's even more interesting is the fact that I swear I have moments when I "sense" things...which, of course, reminded me of what I had written here about "impressions" and what not. And then, of course, I remembered my mother's tales of my various family members who were very "sensitive" to such things... It was just an interesting moment in which I thought, 'Huh. Maybe there's something to all this...'

So, being Lucinda, I've started to map out what I actually believe about the Supernatural. I realize that I do not believe in ghosts, because I believe that souls do not linger after death. I also decided that it is possible to leave an "impression" in a room, especially when there are strong emotions involved. (Now, whether or not impressions can be anthropomorphic is another question entirely.) Also, I can no longer be as completely skeptical of those who claim to speak with spirits...not the spirits of the Dead, mind you, but other entities that can masquerade as/be mistaken for the soul of a human. Ah, but now, what are these other beings that are not human, nor physical, nor even part of this world in the same way that we are?

I don't know...but the more I think about it, the more interesting the idea becomes. Of course I am not ready to jump entirely into things ("Ghosts? Yes!), but I am a bit more open to the idea now than I had been before... (I also figured, I'm so far "out there" already, it's not that big a deal to take another step, savvy?)

[Dan]

Well, I had an...interesting experience while hanging out with one of my friends. Now, she claims to be quite sensitive to supernatural/paranormal things, and I have no doubt that she actually believes this to some extent, and I can definitely respect that. In any case, of course I was a bit skeptical (and I later thought, 'Hmmm, I may have been unfairly skeptical...'). However, the more we spoke, the more I realized that many of her...experience were very odd, and if she was telling the truth (I have no reason to disbelieve her), would warrant some serious investigation. (I can't really go into details for privacy's sake...). What's even more interesting is the fact that I swear I have moments when I "sense" things...which, of course, reminded me of what I had written here about "impressions" and what not. And then, of course, I remembered my mother's tales of my various family members who were very "sensitive" to such things... It was just an interesting moment in which I thought, 'Huh. Maybe there's something to all this...'

So, being Lucinda, I've started to map out what I actually believe about the Supernatural. I realize that I do not believe in ghosts, because I believe that souls do not linger after death. I also decided that it is possible to leave an "impression" in a room, especially when there are strong emotions involved. (Now, whether or not impressions can be anthropomorphic is another question entirely.) Also, I can no longer be as completely skeptical of those who claim to speak with spirits...not the spirits of the Dead, mind you, but other entities that can masquerade as/be mistaken for the soul of a human. Ah, but now, what are these other beings that are not human, nor physical, nor even part of this world in the same way that we are?

I don't know...but the more I think about it, the more interesting the idea becomes. Of course I am not ready to jump entirely into things ("Ghosts? Yes!), but I am a bit more open to the idea now than I had been before... (I also figured, I'm so far "out there" already, it's not that big a deal to take another step, savvy?)

Lucinda, not ghosts now! **groans**

I'm amazed by the confidence of some people to come to such huge conclusions based on feelings and anecdotal evidence. You have just claimed that there may be a whole new phenomena, the paranormal - ghosts, based on zero evidence. Your own feelings and testimonials from friends are meaningless Lucinda in terms of deciding whether something is factually true.

Do you not think that if the paranormal existed, there would be at least one concrete case for it after all this time? If someone genuinely had psychic abilities for instance, why hasn't a single one of them been able to pass a double blind test? James Randi offers a million dollars for any, ANY, example of the paranormal. He's been running this contest for decades now...he's still waiting.

Human beings are pattern seeking mammals. We sense and feel things that have a totally naturalistic explanation but instead attribute them to some supernatural force. Firstly, because it's easy to do, and secondly because our brains are hard wired to do it. When early humans lived out in Africa, if they heard a noise, it was no good if they stood around trying to figure out what caused it, the best option was to attribute it to another entity (a predator) and run. Those who stayed around to investigate may have got eaten, while those who superstitiously thought it was another entity lived and reproduced. We see this all the time in other animals as well.

Thankfully we have the ability to stop and think now. We have the ability to realise that there's probably a far more rational explanation for something that has been labeled paranormal...and you know what there nearly always is. And for them times when there isn't, well there's a whole lot about the natural world that we don't know yet and never will probably, so to attribute it to something for which there is absolutely no evidence (the paranormal) makes no sense whatsoever.

[Veritas]

A friend of mine is a PhD of religious studies who has written not just his doctoral thesis but is now working on a book on the concept of the paranormal and exactly what it is. He believes pretty much what Dan has just said - that the paranormal is our collective remnant evolutionary response to the unknown, and that most of it is either a trick of the mind or a trick from a cruel person. There's a reason why James Randi has made a living debunking bullshit supernatural stuff for years - because most of the times it's the same tricks pulled by the same people.

[Lucinda]

Lucinda, not ghosts now! **groans**

Meh. I figured that I was so far over the fence already, it wouldn't be too much of a problem if I decided to not be as skeptical about paranormal activity. I mean, honestly, I'm already in the "crazy person" camp as it is, so what's one more "odd" belief? *shrug* However, I did explicitly say that I do not believe it "ghosts..."

I'm amazed by the confidence of some people to come to such huge conclusions based on feelings and anecdotal evidence. You have just claimed that there may be a whole new phenomena, the paranormal - ghosts, based on zero evidence. Your own feelings and testimonials from friends are meaningless Lucinda in terms of deciding whether something is factually true.

Hmmm...two things here. First, I apologize if it seemed as though I was asserting that all of these things--spirits, paranormal activity, etc--were actually true. I'm not saying that they are. I just had a moment in which I realized that there is a possibility that they are true (all things are hypothetically possible, no?), and I decided that I wouldn't be so skeptical. I mean, I've said and believe things that are taken to be just as insane...So why not give my fellow madmen a chance as well?

Secondly...if my own experiences mean nothing, nor the experiences of others, then what reason do I have to believe the words of others? Blame Descartes, but it is my personal opinion that, well, the only thing that we can truly know are our own experiences (and even then, it's very...imprecise and uncertain). So, I ask, why should I take your word, or the word of anyone who has claimed to debunk any paranormal claims over anything else? Why should I even believe that James Randi has tested anyone fairly? Hell, why should I even believe that he exists? "Evidence" is easily manipulated and forged, and while I know that this is a double-edged sword...it's something that strikes me as very important. (But you know, already, that I am [philosophically] a skeptic).

Do you not think that if the paranormal existed, there would be at least one concrete case for it after all this time? If someone genuinely had psychic abilities for instance, why hasn't a single one of them been able to pass a double blind test? James Randi offers a million dollars for any, ANY, example of the paranormal. He's been running this contest for decades now...he's still waiting.

Ha. How are we defining "concrete?" Concrete as in "he is writing an article on this, and I believe that he is telling the truth" or concrete as in "I have experienced this." Or something else? Why should I trust James Randi at all? *laughs* Is it not very possible that this man has met a legit psychic, who passed the test, and he either a) threw out that result or b) behaved as though she (the psychic) did not pass the test? And then, it also depends on his definition of what constitutes "an example of the paranormal." Obviously, if he wants a "ghost" to appear in front of him, on command of the medium, it will likely not happen.

Human beings are pattern seeking mammals. We sense and feel things that have a totally naturalistic explanation but instead attribute them to some supernatural force. Firstly, because it's easy to do, and secondly because our brains are hard wired to do it. When early humans lived out in Africa, if they heard a noise, it was no good if they stood around trying to figure out what caused it, the best option was to attribute it to another entity (a predator) and run. Those who stayed around to investigate may have got eaten, while those who superstitiously thought it was another entity lived and reproduced. We see this all the time in other animals as well.

Thankfully we have the ability to stop and think now. We have the ability to realise that there's probably a far more rational explanation for something that has been labeled paranormal...and you know what there nearly always is. And for them times when there isn't, well there's a whole lot about the natural world that we don't know yet and never will probably, so to attribute it to something for which there is absolutely no evidence (the paranormal) makes no sense whatsoever.

I think you know my response to this already.

[Nick]

Okay... I'm now claiming this thread in the name of NICK!!!

Anyway, just have... the worst video of a ghost ever! My dad says it's true, but I don't cause I just don't believe it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTi0S1ZUYF0

[Dan]

Hmmm...two things here. First, I apologize if it seemed as though I was asserting that all of these things--spirits, paranormal activity, etc--were actually true. I'm not saying that they are. I just had a moment in which I realized that there is a possibility that they are true (all things are hypothetically possible, no?), and I decided that I wouldn't be so skeptical. I mean, I've said and believe things that are taken to be just as insane...So why not give my fellow madmen a chance as well?

It's entirely up to you, but I think I have two good objections to it. 1) There are far more interesting genuine mysteries in the world for us to give any thought to superstition. Ghosts, psychics, demons, spirits etc. are so transparently fictional, they all centre around humans, are highly anthropomorphous and there's no good evidence for any them. How boring. 2) You're giving the charlatans and frauds another platform on which to con people out of their money.

Secondly...if my own experiences mean nothing, nor the experiences of others, then what reason do I have to believe the words of others? Blame Descartes, but it is my personal opinion that, well, the only thing that we can truly know are our own experiences (and even then, it's very...imprecise and uncertain). So, I ask, why should I take your word, or the word of anyone who has claimed to debunk any paranormal claims over anything else? Why should I even believe that James Randi has tested anyone fairly? Hell, why should I even believe that he exists? "Evidence" is easily manipulated and forged, and while I know that this is a double-edged sword...it's something that strikes me as very important. (But you know, already, that I am [philosophically] a skeptic).

Come on now Lucinda, we've been here before. I've gone on at great length about why the scientific method should trump your experiences. Ultimately we have to make the assumption that science works. We assume science works because it keeps planes in the sky and medicine makes us better. You also accept this premise it seems, you get on planes and take medicine, yet when the evidence conflicts with something you want to believe, you retreat to a "philosophical skepticism" (which sounds a lot like post-modernism). You can't have it both ways, either the scientific method works or it doesn't?

Ha. How are we defining "concrete?" Concrete as in "he is writing an article on this, and I believe that he is telling the truth" or concrete as in "I have experienced this." Or something else? Why should I trust James Randi at all? *laughs* Is it not very possible that this man has met a legit psychic, who passed the test, and he either a) threw out that result or b) behaved as though she (the psychic) did not pass the test? And then, it also depends on his definition of what constitutes "an example of the paranormal." Obviously, if he wants a "ghost" to appear in front of him, on command of the medium, it will likely not happen.

Concrete as in passing a double blind test, which ensures everything is fair as possible (look the term up on Wiki), and if the results are above chance (say 6/10) then there's an indication of a paranormal ability.

To say that James Randi may be fixing tests results is a cop out. You're dodging the point now. How can anyone ever talk about the EVIDENCE if you constantly say such and such a person may have doctored a result. Again, we have to assume that the double blind test was carried out as agreed. The protocols are agreed by both the medium and Randi's team beforehand! Take a look at this video (there's two parts) on YouTube which shows Randi's team testing a child medium: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UhdmigdGBX0

[Veritas]

Blame Descartes, but it is my personal opinion that, well, the only thing that we can truly know are our own experiences (and even then, it's very...imprecise and uncertain). So, I ask, why should I take your word, or the word of anyone who has claimed to debunk any paranormal claims over anything else? Why should I even believe that James Randi has tested anyone fairly? Hell, why should I even believe that he exists? "Evidence" is easily manipulated and forged, and while I know that this is a double-edged sword...it's something that strikes me as very important. (But you know, already, that I am [philosophically] a skeptic).

Are you reading all of Descartes? I thought the final conclusion of his Meditations was that, starting from cogito ergo sum, and then following through his several conclusions, that by only reason and deduction can the world be interpreted.

According to Descartes:
[quote=Summary of Meditations VI]Proof of the reality of external material things

1. I have a "strong inclination" to believe in the reality of external material things due to my senses.
2. God must have created me with this nature.
3. If independent material things do not exist, God is a deceiver.
4. But God is not a deceiver.
5. So material things exist and contain the properties essential to them.[/quote]

While I do disagree with Descartes save for the basic genius of cogito ergo sum, this was the final of his logical thoughts. That our senses are trusted and that the world exists, elsewise God is a deceiver. The logical extrapolation of that is that since our senses tell us others exist are of the same origin and same species as us, they then have the same divinely-influenced inclination to believe in external material things.

The point is thus: the words on the page of the science book came from someone, somewhere, and it is always right to question who. But in order to enjoy the privileges of today's society, all of us, at some point, have held up our hands and said "I don't understand how this works but I trust it, and all the millions of people who have been involved in its creation." It is a slight leap. We could call it a leap of faith.

(I don't consider it a leap of faith because, as previously stated, I think Descartes was mostly blowing it out of his ass.)

[Lucinda]

Dan, you're asking me to make a lot of assumptions, aren't you? And I don't consider my philosophical skepticism something I retreat into--it's something that I coming to learn more of (and accept more of) as the days pass. I'm trying to look more critically at EVERYTHING I "believe" in, and ask myself, "Well, why do I believe this?" Or "Why don't I believe this?" And, actually, I can have it both ways: The scientific method applies to the physical (material) world (although I can see myself doubting its validity there too). That's it. It doesn't make sense to apply it to something immaterial, now does it? So, when someone tries to do this, I can without flinch ignore them.

I respect that you find paranormal activity "boring," but in a similar way, I find the natural world boring. It matters not. And am I giving con artists any more of a platform than anyone else? Or, could it be that I'm giving legit psychics a platform as well? Couldn't it easily go both ways?

Speaking of Randi again...You haven't yet given me a reason to trust his results. Being skeptical of him isn't any more of a cop out than being skeptical of the psychic! It's not the fact that no one has passed his test--it's that we don't know if anyone has except for what he has relayed to us of his findings! I doubt you're one to believe everything you're told...so why do you believe him? Which makes me also wonder... Why don't you believe in the existence of the supernatural/paranormal? I'm honestly curious.

Veritas, I have read all of Descartes Meditations...and, admittedly, his conclusion leaves much to be desired, and I actually disagree with his conclusion (it's so very weak). However, his initial questions I find almost inescapable, and very, very telling. It's a challenge. And yes, it's madness to think of things in this way at all times, but it doesn't hurt to consider the question often. Why should I throw up my hands and say, "Ah, I do not understand, but I trust it?"

I agree: That sounds dangerously like faith to me. Even blind faith it seems.

(I don't consider it a leap of faith because, as previously stated, I think Descartes was mostly blowing it out of his ass.)

You're not alone on that one, I assure you. But I think it's brilliant. He and Hume gave me two of the biggest shocks of my life...and all in the direction of skepticism. My suspicions of what I consider to be "Truth" have only grown since that initial shock... I like to think that we all choose our delusions, and the best we can do is hope that we chose the right one.

[BAD01]

Last time I check you guys are not Ghost Hunters, those guys on Scfi now those are Ghost Hunters.